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fontana (fontana)'s status on Monday, 30-Apr-2012 12:38:12 EDT 
fontana
@lxoliva WDYM? The Apache License is a !freesoftware license, specifically recommended by !fsf for contexts such as that here -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Monday, 30-Apr-2012 12:42:41 EDT 
lxoliva
@fontana it is well known that any permissive license, such as Apache, does nothing to *defend* users' freedoms. defend != respect -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Monday, 30-Apr-2012 12:45:26 EDT
lxoliva
@fontana what case this context fits in that makes the fsf recommendation a permissive license, rather than a strong copyleft one? -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Monday, 30-Apr-2012 12:47:08 EDT
lxoliva
@fontana and why does Red Hat care about what the FSF has to say when it comes to offering users weaker defenses than possible? -
dhraakellian (dhraakellian)'s status on Monday, 30-Apr-2012 14:26:24 EDT 
dhraakellian
@lxoliva possible weasel word warning -
fontana (fontana)'s status on Monday, 30-Apr-2012 18:05:13 EDT
fontana
@lxoliva RHT desires #OpenShift Origin to become basis of standard free sw PaaS implementation. FSF has recommended ALv2 for this purpose. -
fontana (fontana)'s status on Monday, 30-Apr-2012 18:06:39 EDT
fontana
@lxoliva Comes down to an issue of trust. You ex- #Cygnus employees don't understand this issue, I have found. -
cwebber (cwebber)'s status on Monday, 30-Apr-2012 18:44:08 EDT 
cwebber
@lxolivia OpenShift involves deployment scripts and etc right? LAGPL might make more sense, but AGPL might require releasing system scripts? -
cwebber (cwebber)'s status on Monday, 30-Apr-2012 18:44:31 EDT
cwebber
ie, APLv2 makes sense to me here, from my vague understanding. -
cwebber (cwebber)'s status on Monday, 30-Apr-2012 18:44:50 EDT
cwebber
Los Angeles General Public License #LAGPL -
cwebber (cwebber)'s status on Monday, 30-Apr-2012 19:18:38 EDT
cwebber
Btw, I thought "APLv2" meant Apache License v2 but that's probably wrong. I blame @evan or my misreading of http://ur1.ca/954rj -
fontana (fontana)'s status on Monday, 30-Apr-2012 20:59:31 EDT
fontana
@cwebber yeah it would have been something more like #AGPL + additional permissions. Pwnage problem though, MediaGoblin not enough. -
Evan Prodromou (evan)'s status on Monday, 30-Apr-2012 22:00:46 EDT 
Evan Prodromou
YES. I agree. -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 12:46:59 EDT
lxoliva
@fontana thanks. from that, I infer there were other contenders to such a standard, but OpenShift sounded unique to me. what did I miss? -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 12:48:57 EDT
lxoliva
@fontana trust on whom or what? I don't know what issue it is to tell whether I understand it ;-) never been a Cygnus employee BTW -
fontana (fontana)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 15:05:54 EDT
fontana
@lxoliva oh I thought you were a #Cygnus employee for some reason -
fontana (fontana)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 15:06:59 EDT
fontana
@lxoliva issue is, can you trust a company to release new software under #GPL given widespread abuse of GPL by proprietary relicensors -
fontana (fontana)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 15:08:48 EDT
fontana
@lxoliva the desire is for this code to become the standard. Only other FLOSS PaaS project I know of is #CloudFoundry; uses ALv2 as well -
Evan Prodromou (evan)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 15:27:29 EDT
Evan Prodromou
Doesn't CloudFoundry depend on VMWare, though? -
Adam (teferi)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 15:30:31 EDT 
Adam
@evan No, CloudFoundry is its own thing. They do distribute a "Micro Edition" of it as a vmware image, though. -
robmyers (robmyers)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 15:31:51 EDT 
robmyers
@fontana if not, the solution is for the rightsholder to not be a company... -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 16:38:59 EDT
lxoliva
@cwebber maybe ALGPL would be a more suitable acronym, although it might be mistaken for some Arabic license ;-) -
fontana (fontana)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 16:48:35 EDT
fontana
@lxoliva I see email addresses for you on archaic web pages that say lxoliva at #cygnus dot com. Was that post-acquisition? -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 17:20:06 EDT
lxoliva
@fontana I was a contractor with “Cygnus, a Red Hat company” for a couple of years, but employment came later, after Red Hat arrived in .br -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 17:21:23 EDT
lxoliva
@fontana I don't get that argument. ALv2 doesn't take away any doubt that the software will remain free in the future; quite opposite -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 17:23:00 EDT
lxoliva
@fontana so Red Hat missed the opportunity to set up a level playing field like e.g. Linux's, furthering proprietary forks instead :-( -
fontana (fontana)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 17:23:42 EDT
fontana
@lxoliva ah, I did not know that -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 17:25:00 EDT
lxoliva
@fontana how can Red Hat, after years of Linux experience, not see that “AL is better to bring .com contributors” is FUD by abusers? -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 17:29:21 EDT
lxoliva
@fontana aoliva at cygnus.* shortly became at redhat.*, yeah. it all started in feb 2000, few months after the merge -
Evan Prodromou (evan)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 17:31:13 EDT
Evan Prodromou
Cool. cloudfoundry.com is like, "Step 1: Install VMWorkHappySpaces" -
Evan Prodromou (evan)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 17:31:34 EDT
Evan Prodromou
Also, HEY. -
fontana (fontana)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 17:57:02 EDT
fontana
@lxoliva only viable choice to stop proprietary forks is #AGPL, but AGPL has suffered from commercial pwnage problem. -
fontana (fontana)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 17:58:35 EDT
fontana
@lxoliva I think it may be true right now. If Red Hat had chosen AGPL, little chance of there being non-RHT contributors. -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 18:02:59 EDT
lxoliva
@fontana if OpenShift gets any external contributions under AL, how could AGPL have averted that? -
robmyers (robmyers)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 18:03:27 EDT
robmyers
@fontana How do you mean? #interested -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 18:04:10 EDT
lxoliva
@fontana AL just enables some of the improvements to never see the light of day. rather than encouraging, it discourages contributions -
robmyers (robmyers)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 18:07:32 EDT
robmyers
@robmyers oice -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 18:07:45 EDT
lxoliva
@fontana my feeling is that Red Hat chose preemptive defeat, rather than leadership on the path that has served it so well -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 18:16:47 EDT
lxoliva
“if you copyleft, we won't contribute” often means “we won't contribute anyway, but with copyleft we can't abuse so it's no use” -
bkuhn (bkuhn)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 18:27:14 EDT 
bkuhn
@lxoliva, Extremely insightful. I think you're right. Sad thing is, it's one of those hypotheses that can't be tested w/out alt. universes. -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 18:49:11 EDT
lxoliva
@bkuhn well, given the existence of AL contender, it could have been tested now, but Red Hat chose the pyrrhic preemptive defeat instead -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 18:50:49 EDT
lxoliva
@bkuhn by preemptive defeat I mean giving up core values to get popularity for something that won't be aligned with the core values -
Evan Prodromou (evan)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 19:00:36 EDT
Evan Prodromou
It seems relatively straightforward to make a GPLv3 or AGPLv3 fork of OpenShift. #gnushift #freeshift -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 19:05:58 EDT
lxoliva
@fontana sounds like Red Hat is uncertain about the OSS proposition that OSS is more beneficial to all involved parties -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 19:06:52 EDT
lxoliva
@fontana if it was sure, it would know others would join in regardless of conditions to keep derivatives OSS -
fontana (fontana)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 20:21:11 EDT
fontana
@lxoliva I suspect target contributor base finds #AGPL repugnant. -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 20:29:14 EDT
lxoliva
@fontana because they misunderstand the license, or because they don't want to respect users' freedoms? -
fontana (fontana)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 20:53:33 EDT
fontana
@lxoliva Don't know. Right now it's still all theoretical. -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 21:05:46 EDT
lxoliva
@fontana that sounded like an admission of preemptive defeat :-( -
fontana (fontana)'s status on Tuesday, 01-May-2012 21:09:04 EDT
fontana
@lxoliva not really. Apache License is actually stealth copyleft here. -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Wednesday, 02-May-2012 09:25:32 EDT
lxoliva
@fontana huh? stealth copyleft? now you totally lost me. can you elaborate? -
fontana (fontana)'s status on Wednesday, 02-May-2012 11:21:54 EDT
fontana
@lxoliva Freedom is arguably about more than mere licensing. Assumption otherwise seems typical of those associated with #Cygnus. -
fontana (fontana)'s status on Wednesday, 02-May-2012 11:22:57 EDT
fontana
@lxoliva I believe that under some circumstances using noncopyleft license is better route to achieve social aims of copyleft. -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Wednesday, 02-May-2012 11:29:14 EDT
lxoliva
@fontana yeah, thank you! even OSI, whose defn obsesses about properties of licenses, goes beyond that in some bullets -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Wednesday, 02-May-2012 11:30:26 EDT
lxoliva
@fontana [software] freedom is about the [4] freedoms one retains; licenses are just one of many means to take them away -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Wednesday, 02-May-2012 11:32:12 EDT
lxoliva
@fontana I (&FSF) agree it may be in some cases, but that doesn't make it so in all cases, let alone without plausible evidence -
fontana (fontana)'s status on Wednesday, 02-May-2012 11:46:58 EDT
fontana
@lxoliva I think #freedom is about more than mere source availability too. -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Wednesday, 02-May-2012 12:22:23 EDT
lxoliva
@fontana of course! freedom means *no* obstable prevents its enjoyment; -ENOSRC and ©opyrestrictions are just two common obstacles -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Wednesday, 02-May-2012 12:23:11 EDT
lxoliva
@fontana there are various other kinds of legal, technical, social, etc obstacles to freedom, even when it comes to software -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Wednesday, 02-May-2012 12:25:57 EDT
lxoliva
@fontana I wish more FLOSS proponents would see that. too bad OSI didn't expand Perens' criteria like Debian did
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