Conversation:
Notices
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mlinksva (mlinksva)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Sep-2012 15:40:05 EDT 
mlinksva
Stallman on non-free education licenses http://stallman.org/articles/online-education.html !CC -
mlinksva (mlinksva)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Sep-2012 15:50:14 EDT
mlinksva
Also see https://identi.ca/conversation/93535563 #RMS calling for free scientific works, which unlike his position on educational works... -
mlinksva (mlinksva)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Sep-2012 15:50:49 EDT
mlinksva
...represents a change vs https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/copyright-versus-community.html but nice to see an essay on educational works. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Sep-2012 17:05:09 EDT 
zotz
mistakenly asserts that art/entertainment works are not used for educational purposes. same with personal viewpoints. -
robmyers (robmyers)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Sep-2012 17:10:22 EDT 
robmyers
@zotz That's even before we get to artistic freedom of expression and criticism... -
mlinksva (mlinksva)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Sep-2012 17:29:22 EDT
mlinksva
@zotz @robmyers completely agree of course, but nice to see RMS addressing topic, even with flaws. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Sep-2012 17:35:08 EDT
zotz
yup. it may make a difference in the field he addresses and he may get "there" eventually. -
robmyers (robmyers)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Sep-2012 17:36:24 EDT
robmyers
@mlinksva Yes, it's very timely and I agree with him about NC for OER (obviously). -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Sep-2012 17:40:56 EDT 
lxoliva
@zotz IIUC his opinion is more like ability to change works of art/entertainment/opinion isn't needed for their educational uses -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Sep-2012 17:49:26 EDT
zotz
that may be but that is still incorrect. -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Sep-2012 18:45:57 EDT
lxoliva
@zotz I happen to agree with you, but that's no excuse for strawman, is it? :-) -
mlinksva (mlinksva)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Sep-2012 19:46:59 EDT
mlinksva
@lxoliva I see no evidence for your understanding in http://ur1.ca/acvj6 or http://ur1.ca/af5g2 ; strawman accusation bogus. -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Sep-2012 20:04:27 EDT
lxoliva
@mlinksva do you see evidence *for* the position attributed to @rms? it's lack thereof that makes it a strawman -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Sep-2012 20:05:15 EDT
lxoliva
@mlinksva FTR, my understanding of his position doesn't stem from as little as a couple of web pages -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Sep-2012 20:08:54 EDT
lxoliva
@mlinksva while you attributed a change of opinion to RMS WRT educational works, this article had no news about his position to me -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Sep-2012 20:10:20 EDT
lxoliva
@mlinksva what was newish to me was the clearly stated argument against CC-BY-NC-SA for educational works -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Sep-2012 20:11:38 EDT
lxoliva
@mlinksva it was new because it wasn't an argument on the ethics that apply to all “functional” works, but on practical problems -
mlinksva (mlinksva)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Sep-2012 20:28:27 EDT
mlinksva
@lxoliva yes, implication by omission: nothing about category overlap. admittedly @zotz "asserts" too strong. apologies. -
mlinksva (mlinksva)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Sep-2012 20:31:37 EDT
mlinksva
@lxoliva I didn't attribute a change re educational works. The change, some months ago, was re scientific works. See above. -
mlinksva (mlinksva)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Sep-2012 20:32:54 EDT
mlinksva
@lxoliva yes it is a nice newish emphasis. -ish because "educational works" already called out as functional in http://ur1.ca/af5g2 -
mlinksva (mlinksva)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Sep-2012 20:38:28 EDT
mlinksva
@lxoliva true, but then "Even if the problem with CC-BY-NC-SA and CC-BY-NC is fixed, they still won't be the right way to release edu..." :) -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Sep-2012 20:56:26 EDT
lxoliva
@mlinksva yep, agreed -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Sep-2012 08:11:20 EDT
zotz
no strawman, no distinction that other educational resources may not need to be modifiable. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Sep-2012 08:14:21 EDT
zotz
"digital educational works" a distinct group from "works of art/entertainment" and those "that present personal viewpoints" Not too strong. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Sep-2012 08:34:19 EDT
zotz
There exists some works that are not useful for education or that some works used for educational purposes gain no benefit from Freedom. Not -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Sep-2012 08:36:37 EDT
zotz
The bogosity is from the thought that there exist works that are not functional in some sphere of human endeavour. The are all functional. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Sep-2012 08:38:35 EDT
zotz
They all have a function and serve a purpose. -
mlinksva (mlinksva)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Sep-2012 11:39:36 EDT
mlinksva
@zotz "too strong" only in "asserts", which was not done positively, but by implication. anyway, sorry to both you and @lxoliva. I shouldnt… -
mlinksva (mlinksva)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Sep-2012 11:42:48 EDT
mlinksva
@zotz …have posted in subthread. did bc failed to contain tic of mine which revolts at ppl leaping to defend ~heroes from sound criticism. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Sep-2012 14:37:36 EDT
zotz
no sorry needed to/for me as i regard this as a *conversation* among "friends" -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Sep-2012 15:05:32 EDT
lxoliva
@zotz you're trying to convince the wrong person; your position being right doesn't turn your strawman into his position -
csolisr (csolisr)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Sep-2012 15:17:55 EDT 
csolisr
@mlinsva The most dangerous problem with the @FSF is that its members rarely, if ever, make a critical questioning of its gurus' viewpoints. -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Sep-2012 15:20:59 EDT
lxoliva
@mlinksva no apology needed. now, I don't agree that's even implied. I point out strawman even when applied to opponents, as in this case -
bobjonkman (bobjonkman)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Sep-2012 15:55:25 EDT 
bobjonkman
@csolisr: I disagree; many @FSF members don't subscribe to @RMS's view that art/opinion should be !copyright. This conversation, for example -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Sep-2012 18:39:47 EDT
zotz
I don't see a strawman. I see educational works need to be Free. I agree. This implies all such materials as I read it. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Sep-2012 18:40:49 EDT
zotz
And I say those are a subset of educational materials. Intended or not. Article seems to imply different. Yes? No? -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Thursday, 27-Sep-2012 12:52:31 EDT
lxoliva
@zotz that's what makes the difference, I guess. IIUC @rms regards works of opinion or for entertainment as different classes -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Thursday, 27-Sep-2012 12:57:18 EDT
lxoliva
@zotz which is not to say that they shouldn't be Free; that's where you and I diverge from @rms -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Thursday, 27-Sep-2012 13:01:00 EDT
lxoliva
@zotz so your pointing out an apparent inconsistency in it indicates to me some underlying mismatch that ends up in a strawman -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Thursday, 27-Sep-2012 13:01:35 EDT
lxoliva
@zotz from this conversation, I guess the difference is in the meaning of educational work: term overload => misunderstanding => strawman -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Thursday, 27-Sep-2012 17:36:45 EDT
zotz
Reworded: mistakenly asserts that art/entertainment works are not "educational works" etc. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Thursday, 27-Sep-2012 17:37:54 EDT
zotz
second paragraph: "When a work is made for doing a practical job" -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Thursday, 27-Sep-2012 17:38:36 EDT
zotz
mistake perhaps is thinking the purpose something is made = purpose something is fit for. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Thursday, 27-Sep-2012 17:39:47 EDT
zotz
fourth paragraph" : Those works aren't meant for doing a practical job" -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Thursday, 27-Sep-2012 17:40:38 EDT
zotz
just because they are not *meant* for it does not mean they are not suited for it. -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Friday, 28-Sep-2012 02:02:51 EDT
lxoliva
@zotz which is exactly what I tried to explain the other day ;-) -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Friday, 28-Sep-2012 02:07:43 EDT
lxoliva
@zotz yup. it's not clear who's making that mistake, tho :-) “unfit for” doesn't follow from his article, methinks -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Friday, 28-Sep-2012 08:08:17 EDT
zotz
think about it some more. -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Saturday, 29-Sep-2012 16:15:04 EDT
lxoliva
@zotz done. I'm growing convinced the miscommunication has to do with the different definition of “educational works” -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Sunday, 30-Sep-2012 09:33:16 EDT
zotz
I think I get the attempted definition. I happen to disagree with that attempt. It disrespects other's needs/uses. -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Sunday, 30-Sep-2012 11:29:21 EDT
lxoliva
@zotz good. do you agree that his stance is that educational works are meant to be used for education, but so can other kinds of works? -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Sunday, 30-Sep-2012 11:32:49 EDT
zotz
no, i do not agree with his stance as it leads to a poor conclusion. i see how his poor stance leads logically to his poor conclusion though -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Sunday, 30-Sep-2012 11:46:01 EDT
lxoliva
@zotz tjat -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Sunday, 30-Sep-2012 11:47:03 EDT
lxoliva
@zotz I didn't ask whether you agree with his stance, but on what his stance is. knowing the latter is 1st step in avoiding strawmen -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Sunday, 30-Sep-2012 11:49:44 EDT
lxoliva
@zotz I, for one, reject the notion that authors or editors get to decide how works they publish are [meant] to be used -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Sunday, 30-Sep-2012 11:51:53 EDT
lxoliva
@zotz my rejection of a basic premise in his reasoning doesn't stop me from understanding, acknowledging and disagreeing with consequences
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