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laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Monday, 27-Aug-2012 17:29:54 EDT 
laurelrusswurm
A question for advocates of NC-ND removal from Creative Commons: How many creators currently make their living exclusively w/ !CC free? -
DJ Dougernaut (douglasawh)'s status on Monday, 27-Aug-2012 17:36:14 EDT 
DJ Dougernaut
@laurelrusswurm how many advocates for that are there? I'm not an advocate for using NC/ND, but I don't see a problem with their existence -
arnebab (arnebab)'s status on Monday, 27-Aug-2012 17:36:52 EDT 
arnebab
@laurelrusswurm I think “currently” is the key here. We need the possibility of smooth transition — slow enough for traditional art! -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Monday, 27-Aug-2012 18:05:14 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@douglasawh I don't advocate it either, but I believe very much it is must be available as a necessary first step. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Monday, 27-Aug-2012 19:19:02 EDT 
zotz
It does not have to be covered by the CC brand though. Too much confusion. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Monday, 27-Aug-2012 19:21:49 EDT
zotz
I am one and have been for years. -
DJ Dougernaut (douglasawh)'s status on Monday, 27-Aug-2012 19:54:54 EDT
DJ Dougernaut
I can't cover this in 280 char, but suffice it to say that ~300 pages of Title 17 (or applicable federal copyright law), international treaties and state-to-state contract law confuse CC more than having an extra couple of licenses does. -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Monday, 27-Aug-2012 20:00:22 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@zotz They are already included in the !cc brand. You folks are advocating removing them. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Monday, 27-Aug-2012 20:12:13 EDT
zotz
because they don't belong, at a minimum, I have asked for years now that CC at least give us a FreeCC brand. no action on even that request. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Monday, 27-Aug-2012 20:13:09 EDT
zotz
if you want to drop all of that, I will not fight you. -
DJ Dougernaut (douglasawh)'s status on Monday, 27-Aug-2012 20:24:51 EDT
DJ Dougernaut
it's not really about what I want. Due to international treaties, best we can hope for is life + 50 on copyright front. -
DJ Dougernaut (douglasawh)'s status on Monday, 27-Aug-2012 20:25:43 EDT
DJ Dougernaut
If it were up to me proprietary software would be illegal. I really don't know how long copyright should be in the Internet age. Getting rid of it would certainly be an interesting experiment - one which I would certainly welcome. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Monday, 27-Aug-2012 20:35:56 EDT
zotz
we could try and change the treaties like this for instance: http://ur1.ca/0cd1w -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Monday, 27-Aug-2012 20:38:17 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@zotz We won't *have* to change the treaties once enough creators use !CC ... there will be a tipping point just #notyet -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Monday, 27-Aug-2012 20:42:41 EDT
zotz
Whichever comes first, but it would be good to change them just from the pov of inadvertent lock down of works from creators ignorant of © -
DJ Dougernaut (douglasawh)'s status on Monday, 27-Aug-2012 21:01:39 EDT
DJ Dougernaut
the people doing treaties are too busy going the wrong direction. Once we get them in neutral we can try going in reverse, but we're probably 20 years from that. Not to clump everybody together, but my parents generation needs to start dying off for progress. -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Monday, 27-Aug-2012 21:22:39 EDT 
lxoliva
@douglasawh they are in reverse. what we want is progress ;-) -
mlinksva (mlinksva)'s status on Monday, 27-Aug-2012 21:55:32 EDT 
mlinksva
@douglasawh CC can't control underlying law, it can its licenses. Tangentially, there were 560 last time I counted http://ur1.ca/8o3rx -
DJ Dougernaut (douglasawh)'s status on Monday, 27-Aug-2012 22:06:31 EDT
DJ Dougernaut
@mlinksva internationalization is separate issue than -NC and -ND as far as I'm concerned. I can't say I know enough about the Internationalization process to comment intelligently. My gut says that's a better place to cut licenses than -NC and -ND. -
mlinksva (mlinksva)'s status on Monday, 27-Aug-2012 22:48:32 EDT
mlinksva
@douglasawh "porting" is indeed separate issue, why I said tangentially. Super super niche topic, though NC or not is itself super niche. :) -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 08:09:14 EDT
zotz
Oh, I know they have the ratchet working overtime. -
csolisr (csolisr)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 13:47:09 EDT 
csolisr
@laurelrusswurm Just to answer your question: @joshwoodward is a musician that uses CC-BY only. -
Terry Hancock (digitante)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 18:14:54 EDT 
Terry Hancock
I use CC free licenses exclusively, but I don't really make a living doing it - NC/ND would make no difference, though -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 18:54:10 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@csolisr Yes, @joshwoodward is an awesome talent; & doesn't get much freer than CC-BY ... Interesting no one else has named free !CC artists -
arnebab (arnebab)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 19:03:09 EDT
arnebab
@laurelrusswurm I named Josh, too…, but I did not know that he is on identi.ca. @joshwoodward: thank you for your great music! -
csolisr (csolisr)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 19:11:47 EDT
csolisr
@arnebab The problem is that @joshwoodward is in Twitter only, no Identi.ca yet. But I may set a mirror account for him someday. -
Terry Hancock (digitante)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 19:31:42 EDT
Terry Hancock
@laurelrusswurm Oh, you want a list? 15 are represented on the "Lunatics" pilot soundtrack - http://is.gd/iuLi1w ... -
Terry Hancock (digitante)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 19:52:45 EDT
Terry Hancock
@laurelrusswurm Some others of note: Subatomic Glue, Tryad, No More Dolls, Avastar, Bruce McCosar, Hemiola, ZAMS -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 19:55:38 EDT
zotz
I know a lot of artists who have done Free CC works, don't know who are committed to all Free though. -
johnnynull (johnnynull)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 20:02:56 EDT 
johnnynull
@zotz @laurelrusswurm @csolisr That's more my issue. A lot of authors use CC to promote and then jump ship. Disingenuous, if you ask me. -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 20:10:27 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@digitante Are all these creators making their living from free !CC ? -
Terry Hancock (digitante)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 20:13:26 EDT
Terry Hancock
@laurelrusswurm I don't ask artists for their financial statements. They have all released work under free !CC licenses. -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 20:21:41 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@digitante lots of people release work under !cc licenses—that's great, it is the point, after all— -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 20:22:31 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@digitante but ND and NC are necessary if people who are making a living in the !copyright world to switch to !cc -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 20:41:16 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@johnnynull Once work is released under a free license, its awfully hard to put it back in the © bottle -
johnnynull (johnnynull)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 20:42:15 EDT
johnnynull
@laurelrusswurm I'm talking about releasing NEW works non-CC, not re-licensing. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 20:42:45 EDT
zotz
except that if teh free license is a copyleft one it is still in the bottle for those wanting to make derivatives but not play Free. -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 20:45:02 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@johnnynull Self publishing as a viable alternative is new !CC is even newer. Creators are trying things out to see what works #tofeedfamily -
johnnynull (johnnynull)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 20:47:53 EDT
johnnynull
@laurelrusswurm This has nothing to do with what I said. I'm sorry I hopped in the thread. -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 20:47:58 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@johnnynull You can help them figure out which way is better: buy their !CC products but don't buy their © stuff. That'll teach 'em -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 20:49:23 EDT
zotz
right, I often ponder writing up a Freedom pledge with penalties for breaking. -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 20:50:08 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@zotz the only way a recording artist can commit to all Free is to never EVER record or cover anything © all rights reserved. #bigLoss -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 20:51:31 EDT
zotz
Freedom is not always free. -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 20:58:31 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@zotz True. NC and ND are restrictive. But so is SA. And BY when you come down to it. Really, the only truly free !CC license is CC0 -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 21:01:24 EDT
zotz
SA is only needs to be restrictive enough to try and stop others from restricting more. I would be cool to have SA without the BY. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 21:02:36 EDT
zotz
since we have copyright law w/automatic copyrights, BY and CC0 just permit greater restrictions one derivative away. Power not Freedom. -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 21:04:40 EDT
laurelrusswurm
Restrictive enough because you agree with what it restricts. Others prefer different restrictions that are closer to their comfort zones. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 21:10:06 EDT
zotz
not at all. it does not restrict Freedom, it tries to ensure Freedom by not allowing Power to remove Freedom. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 21:10:51 EDT
zotz
so long as we have copyright law, it is likely the best idea we can come up with. I am open to hearing better though. -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 21:14:17 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@zotz Of course it restricts freedom... restricts human freedom to protect cultural freedom. That's the trade off. !copyright -
lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 21:17:19 EDT
lxoliva
@laurelrusswurm NC and ND restrict what you can do by yourself (freedom); SA stops you from harming others (power); BY is about truth -
csolisr (csolisr)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 21:22:15 EDT
csolisr
@johnnynull Sad fact: there are artists that release a CC'd album and switch to copyright, or worse, start copyleft and switch to nonfree CC -
ghmorales (ghmorales)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 21:28:12 EDT 
ghmorales
@csolisr Like Diablo Swing Orchestra -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 21:29:47 EDT
zotz
is it time for a Freedom pledge with penalties? -
johnnynull (johnnynull)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 21:42:03 EDT
johnnynull
@zotz Interesting, but I think that would destroy the license. Should be more BSD-like social pressure thing maybe? -
johnnynull (johnnynull)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 21:43:29 EDT
johnnynull
@csolisr Exactly my point. And those are often cited as cases where a (previously) CC artist "made it". -
csolisr (csolisr)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 22:23:49 EDT
csolisr
@ghmorales Thanks for remembering me the infamous name ;D -
csolisr (csolisr)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 22:24:29 EDT
csolisr
@zotz I just read your blogpost. Sadly, your idea is technically unenforceable. -
mlinksva (mlinksva)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Aug-2012 22:36:47 EDT
mlinksva
@zotz honestly I've ignored because it's a low bar. Others have similarly suggested librecommons. I'd rather commons meant something. -
arnebab (arnebab)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Aug-2012 01:16:18 EDT
arnebab
@zotz @csolisr I just found a band which changed from by-sa to NC. But you know what? I’ll just stick to their old music. -
robmyers (robmyers)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Aug-2012 05:19:59 EDT 
robmyers
@laurelrusswurm @zotz BY is less free than SA in general. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Aug-2012 08:05:42 EDT
zotz
no, that would not be a part of the license. it would be a separate pledge artists could take to get more *devoted* fans / promoters. -
johnnynull (johnnynull)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Aug-2012 08:07:15 EDT
johnnynull
@zotz Oh, I see. That could work. I like it. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Aug-2012 08:19:57 EDT
zotz
Well, it causes a lot of arguments, and a lot of other wasted time. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Aug-2012 08:21:19 EDT
zotz
With the spread of licenses CC maintains, "commons" does not really mean anything in the singular. Or at least *very* little. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Aug-2012 08:23:01 EDT
zotz
the idea in the blog post? if so which and why? The idea for a pledge with penalties? Why? -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Aug-2012 08:27:50 EDT
zotz
that's not the big problem, the problem is when you have invested time in promoting them because of their Free music. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Aug-2012 08:29:48 EDT
zotz
in the sense that you take a work and X derivatives, you will likely have more Freedom if the work was BY-SA than if it was BY? is that it? -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Aug-2012 08:56:11 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@robmyers and CC0 is more free than BY or SA -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Aug-2012 16:24:32 EDT
zotz
Not necessarily in terms of total Freedom while copyright law persists. When you go beyond SA you get into power rather than Freedom. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Aug-2012 16:26:35 EDT
zotz
I grant you BY is a power and is unneeded. the right to object to misattribution is different from the right to demand attribution. -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Thursday, 30-Aug-2012 10:10:37 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@zotz To me the idea of characterizing undesirable restrictions "power" and desirable restrictions "freedom" is just semantics. -
albertosesn (albertosesn)'s status on Thursday, 30-Aug-2012 10:19:29 EDT 
albertosesn
@laurelrusswurm The whole idea of !CC is that there are alternatives to !copyright, without that licence there are none inside the CC system -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Thursday, 30-Aug-2012 10:35:15 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@albertosesn Yes. Particularly the way copyright laws are being written and prosecuted now, NC may well keep many young people out of jail. -
mlinksva (mlinksva)'s status on Thursday, 30-Aug-2012 12:45:28 EDT
mlinksva
@laurelrusswurm 'restriction' is the wrong way to think about ANY public license term. © is the restriction. Diff licenses offer diff perms… -
mlinksva (mlinksva)'s status on Thursday, 30-Aug-2012 12:56:14 EDT
mlinksva
…I realize such poor use of 'restrictions' is endemic. freedomdefined.org/Talk:Permissible_restrictions#Inaccuracy_of_.22restrictions.22 -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Thursday, 30-Aug-2012 20:58:09 EDT
zotz
@laurelrusswurm imagine no copyright where do you need power to get the "desired" effect? What looks like ppl just exercising their freedom? -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Friday, 31-Aug-2012 14:00:24 EDT
zotz
I disagree, copyright law provides the restrictions but some licenses do not revert all leaving those in place. hence a restrictive license. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Friday, 31-Aug-2012 14:01:03 EDT
zotz
unless only Free licenses are public licenses. that's not the case is it? -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Friday, 31-Aug-2012 16:58:27 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@zotz absent !copyright no power or restriction would be necessary
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