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laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 12:58:34 EDT 
laurelrusswurm
@marjoleink Those are definitions, not licenses... there is a world of difference between !CC by-nc-sa and !CC by-sa yet both are !copyleft -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 13:58:07 EDT 
zotz
I would say by-nc-sa is not copyleft. to me at least, copyleft implies Freedom. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 14:03:51 EDT
zotz
I see by context though that since others disagree, it is an unsafe assumption when using the works of others. -
marjoleink (marjoleink)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 14:24:39 EDT 
marjoleink
@zotz I would interpret that the same way - to me the 'nc' part negates the spirit of copyleft. -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 14:34:37 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@zotz @marjoleink That is my point: we are far from a single definition of "copyleft" ... creators must specify what they mean re:reuse -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 14:40:16 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@zotz @marjoleink I think the only sure thing about copyleft is the preservation of the same rights in remix -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 14:42:19 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@zotz In the same way if you were to give most people a ticket to a free movie, they will be very annoyed with you when asked for admission -
silner (silner)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 15:06:56 EDT 
silner
@laurelrusswurm Interesting thread; I always wonder if that's worth saying but I'm gonna anyway...cos it is :) -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 18:11:28 EDT
zotz
no, from early days I remember the phrase "all rights reversed" asassociated with copyleft. judo to reverse the restrictions of copyright. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 18:13:54 EDT
zotz
certainly, if not more. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 18:15:21 EDT
zotz
while i don't by the redef of by-nc-sa as copyleft, that fact that others try means the suggested caution is warranted. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 18:18:39 EDT
zotz
don't buy into other's redefining copyleft any more than letting them redefine Free or "open source". understand that they try and take care -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 18:20:02 EDT
zotz
if you offered to sell them a ticket to a Free movie you might have a discussion re libre versus gratis though. -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 18:25:35 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@zotz it says "All Wrongs Reversed" on my @NinaPaley T-shirt -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 18:30:02 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@zotz You've been in this far longer than I, but what I see is most of the public still buys the centuries of propaganda: !copyright is good -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 18:31:29 EDT
zotz
Don't know if I've seen it expressed that way before. -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 18:32:23 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@zotz !copyleft is radical thought that flies in the face of "accepted truth" (people also think !copyright is a right, not a #monopoly) -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 18:35:51 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@zotz Is Creative Commons even a decade old? Tho GPL is older, still, this is way WAY out there for people who have not thought it through. -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 18:38:39 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@zotz many people see no distiction between "open source" and "free software" ~ I know it took me a good while to understand that -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 18:41:26 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@zotz lack of consensus is an issue, but I think more of the problem is it isn't less re-defining phrases as learning what they mean. -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 18:45:26 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@zotz I have heard BY-NC-SA included as copyleft; though I have opinion, it's not my decision. Most of the world thinks BY-NC-SA radical. -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 18:48:22 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@zotz that is what so much of this comes down to; finding ways to engage people who don't think any of this matters :) -
arnebab (arnebab)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 19:37:01 EDT 
arnebab
@laurelrusswurm why should cc by-nc-sa be radical? It’s not useful for stable free culture structures (which need money), but radical? -
arnebab (arnebab)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 19:37:21 EDT
arnebab
@laurelrusswurm maybe I should first ask what you mean by radical… :) -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 19:40:49 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@arnebab The very idea of Creative Commons licenses is radical next to !copyright -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 19:41:47 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@arnebab good point: I don't know when radical became such a bad word -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 19:41:51 EDT
zotz
i feel certain there is a concerted effort to redefine words and give names to actions in this area. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 19:42:44 EDT
zotz
likely because people think share-alike=copyleft and others benefit from promoting that take. -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 19:44:36 EDT
zotz
it is perverse that the chances of getting caught are so small but the penalties are so crazy. otherwise large pressure for change. -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 19:45:31 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@arnebab Even cc by-nc-sa sounded radical when explaining to my octogenarian father why he should release his CD with a CC license -
laurelrusswurm (laurelrusswurm)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 19:47:50 EDT
laurelrusswurm
@zotz Big penalties give you show trials, all the better to frighten people -
zotz (zotz)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 19:52:07 EDT
zotz
but tiny chance of getting caught means to many don't stop. hence "love" of "piracy" by those bemoaning it.
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