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1. csolisr (csolisr)'s status on Monday, 20-Aug-2012 19:58:10 EDT csolisr

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   • climagic
   The potential of the command-line interface as an alternative to nonfree software has been very underrated. !freesoftware @climagic
   • valkov (valkov)'s status on Tuesday, 21-Aug-2012 01:21:08 EDT valkov

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     • csolisr
     @csolisr My observation is that most users are scared/intimidated by/don't like the command line. They need/want shiny pictures to click.
   • bignose (bignose)'s status on Tuesday, 21-Aug-2012 01:37:36 EDT bignose

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     • csolisr
     Under-rated perhaps, but surely not under-explored.
   • jacobwb (jacobwb)'s status on Tuesday, 21-Aug-2012 02:13:20 EDT jacobwb

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     • csolisr
     Command-line interfaces are utterly useless for graphic design, 3D imagery and audio production/manipulation...
   • jacobwb (jacobwb)'s status on Tuesday, 21-Aug-2012 02:14:14 EDT jacobwb

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     • csolisr
     That said, those who do real work -- anything requiring a supercomputer -- prefer the command-line typically, think LHC...
   • jacobwb (jacobwb)'s status on Tuesday, 21-Aug-2012 02:14:47 EDT jacobwb

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     • csolisr
     Some people prefer CLI for other important work as well, such as legal documentation and lawsuits, Eben Moglen uses Emacs, for example.
   • arnebab (arnebab)'s status on Tuesday, 21-Aug-2012 02:22:52 EDT arnebab

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     • jacobwb
     @jacobwb though emacs works well in the CLI and in a graphical environment, which is a big advantage for me.
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Tuesday, 21-Aug-2012 04:07:14 EDT kr428

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     • csolisr
     Massively depends on your use cases and user base, though. CLI does not solve _all_ problems.
   • lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 21-Aug-2012 14:00:06 EDT lxoliva

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     • jacobwb
     @jacobwb try to tell that to an expert A*CAD user who relies heavily on its LISP interface to get work done
   • lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 21-Aug-2012 14:03:39 EDT lxoliva

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     • jacobwb
     @jacobwb every GUI shall expose a scripting interface that power users can interact and automate tasks with
   • lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 21-Aug-2012 14:07:17 EDT lxoliva

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     • jacobwb
     @jacobwb think of it as “configurable shortcut keys” on steroids ;-)
   • zoowar (zoowar)'s status on Tuesday, 21-Aug-2012 14:09:53 EDT zoowar

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     • lxoliva
     Better still, the GUI will use the scripting interface.
   • lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 21-Aug-2012 14:51:43 EDT lxoliva

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     • zoowar
     @zoowar totally! the GUI can and should be built on the underlying also-exposed scripting interface!
   • lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 21-Aug-2012 15:04:34 EDT lxoliva

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     • zoowar
     @zoowar also, there shall be a mode in which the GUI *shows* the equivalent scripting commands as you interact with it
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Tuesday, 21-Aug-2012 15:05:09 EDT kr428

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     • lxoliva
     @lxoliva what gets one further - image retouching without scripting or without GUI? ;)
   • zoowar (zoowar)'s status on Tuesday, 21-Aug-2012 15:20:47 EDT zoowar

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     • kr428
     Retouch properties can be determined by script and applied with the click of a mouse. Mutual exclusion need not apply.
   • lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 21-Aug-2012 15:21:44 EDT lxoliva

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     • kr428
     @kr428 you're asking me? scripting, for sure, unless the GUI can be operated with keyboard only
   • lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 21-Aug-2012 15:24:41 EDT lxoliva

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     • kr428
     @kr428 I mean, scripting without GUI gets me farther; I made drawings for maths tests writing Postscript sources!
   • lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Tuesday, 21-Aug-2012 15:25:18 EDT lxoliva

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     • kr428
     @kr428 and I did that because it was far more practical (for me) than trying to get things right with a mouse!
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Tuesday, 21-Aug-2012 17:57:40 EDT kr428

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     • lxoliva
     @lxoliva but you would have a hard time doing so while, in example, trying ti improve focus and exposure in photos.
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Tuesday, 21-Aug-2012 17:58:44 EDT kr428

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     • lxoliva
     @lxoliva to doing anything else image processing wise that requires you to see the image you're working with. ;)
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Tuesday, 21-Aug-2012 18:00:05 EDT kr428

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     • lxoliva
     @lxoliva (blame android on screen keys for any typos :))
   • jacobwb (jacobwb)'s status on Tuesday, 21-Aug-2012 22:19:57 EDT jacobwb

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     • lxoliva
     @lxoliva That's similar to the usefulness of Python scripts in Blender; in both cases the scripts are useless without their graphical output
   • jacobwb (jacobwb)'s status on Tuesday, 21-Aug-2012 22:27:09 EDT jacobwb

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     • lxoliva
     @lxoliva There're certainly very strong merits to having some CLI/scripting, but A*CAD, 3D, and audio/video can only truly be done in a GUI.
   • jacobwb (jacobwb)'s status on Tuesday, 21-Aug-2012 22:54:37 EDT jacobwb

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     • lxoliva
     @lxoliva Isn't that somewhat the case with GNOME Shell Looking Glass? (also, GNOME Shell is totally keyboard operational, just FYI.)
   • Joshua Judson Rosen (rozzin)'s status on Tuesday, 21-Aug-2012 23:11:49 EDT Joshua Judson Rosen

     • csolisr
     @csolisr, have you seen #Moglen's comments about, as he called it, the #PARC #caveman-interface?
   • lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 05:43:26 EDT lxoliva

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     • jacobwb
     @jacobwb you're saying video requires a GUI to guy person who edited “Free Software and the Matrix” with command line tools ;-)
   • lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 05:49:22 EDT lxoliva

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     • kr428
     @kr428 I've nothing against being able to see images before and after scriptable image processing steps, indeed ;-) is that a GUI?
   • jacobwb (jacobwb)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 05:56:52 EDT jacobwb

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     • lxoliva
     @lxoliva Stitching clips together and adding music is one thing, generating visuals and tracking a scenes motion to render CGI is another.
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 06:03:38 EDT kr428

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     • lxoliva
     @lxoliva No. :) A GUI, in example while importing RAW, will show me original and preview side-by-side before doing any processing. ;)
   • lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 06:08:36 EDT lxoliva

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     • jacobwb
     @jacobwb I'm pretty sure rendering tools run (overnight) scripts generated with by hand, GUIs, whatever. your point?
   • lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 06:10:33 EDT lxoliva

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     • kr428
     @kr428 wow, that's amazing! can this no-processing preview generator be used to avoid any processing for the actual image too? ;-P
   • lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 06:11:42 EDT lxoliva

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     • kr428
     @kr428 now, seriously, is there anything not scriptable about scaling image size down, running the algorithm on it and displaying both?
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 06:23:46 EDT kr428

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     • lxoliva
     @lxoliva The point is: I don't care that processing happens here, neither do I care whether whatever happens there for preview is a script;
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 06:24:19 EDT kr428

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     • lxoliva
     @lxoliva at this point I want a workflow which is image-centric not technology centric. Scripting to me just is a technical detail here. ;)
   • lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 10:24:14 EDT lxoliva

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     • kr428
     @kr428 right. but if you ever use hotkeys rather than clickityclick menus, you know where I'm coming from (it's a lesser form of scripting)
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 10:27:45 EDT kr428

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     • lxoliva
     • csolisr
     @lxoliva But it's not about menus. Ever tried, say, doing a lasso selection in an app like #gimp using CLI or hotkeys? ;)
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 10:28:22 EDT kr428

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     • lxoliva
     • csolisr
     @lxoliva My point is: There _are_ use cases that _need_ UIs which aren't CLI or text-driven. ;)
   • lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 10:40:04 EDT lxoliva

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     • kr428
     @kr428 depends... do the arrows I prefer to use over a mouse when I want precision count as hotkeys?
   • lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 10:41:45 EDT lxoliva

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     • kr428
     @kr428 seems like we're miscommunicating. I don't deny GUIs are useful for some; I just wish they weren't ever the only interface
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 12:49:43 EDT kr428

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     • lxoliva
     @lxoliva I know. Yet I claim there are things that can't effectively be done using textual interfaces.
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 12:50:58 EDT kr428

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     • lxoliva
     @lxoliva No. But rendering and operating on a bitmap is graphical interface in my opinion. ;)
   • lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 13:55:31 EDT lxoliva

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     • kr428
     @kr428 aah, I think I found the root of miscommunication! I'm not speaking of computer->user interface, but user->computer
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 14:38:15 EDT kr428

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     • lxoliva
     • csolisr
     @lxoliva Well, I don't really see a difference here. If the computer is capable of displaying graphics, why not operate on that?
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 14:38:56 EDT kr428

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     • lxoliva
     • csolisr
     @lxoliva Looking at some partners of ours who are into media / photo processing, it seems in there CLI has fairly little relevance ...
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 14:39:37 EDT kr428

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     • lxoliva
     • csolisr
     @lxoliva ... except for scripting and batch processing which, compared to interactive, per-image work, is a niche field of use at best.
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 14:41:00 EDT kr428

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     • lxoliva
     • csolisr
     @lxoliva Even worse, looking at touch operated devices spreading all over there, CLI is even more difficult to use than the worst menu... :/
   • lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 14:44:00 EDT lxoliva

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     • kr428
     @kr428 indeed, why not operate on that? does being able to script impair or get in the way of operating on displayed graphics?
   • lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 14:46:52 EDT lxoliva

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     • kr428
     @kr428 have I ever told you how much I love to ssh from laptop to phone and send SMSes and make calls from within emacs? ;-)
   • zoowar (zoowar)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 14:50:53 EDT zoowar

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     • kr428
     Siri, are you a "touch operated device" evolved? Siri, can you proxy CLI? Yes and yes.
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 14:52:09 EDT kr428

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     • zoowar
     You _don't_ use Siri for image processing (that's where we started), do you? ;)
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 14:52:43 EDT kr428

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     • lxoliva
     @lxoliva Yes. Same as I keep our servers running just like that. Yet I never would want to use CLI for imaging. It's not a golden hammer. ;)
   • zoowar (zoowar)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 14:55:46 EDT zoowar

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     • kr428
     Siri, find all the convex hulls for green areas in the image. Siri, how many are there. Siri combine the tress smallest.
   • lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 14:56:13 EDT lxoliva

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     • kr428
     @kr428 don't narrow scriptability to CLI! all graphical programs are written (scripted) in a programming language
   • lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 14:58:01 EDT lxoliva

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     • kr428
     @kr428 under that light, your argument seems to come across as “there are cases in which users *must not* be offered scriptability”
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 14:59:04 EDT kr428

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     • zoowar
     Siri, crop that image so the predominant image element is exactly where I want it and adapt the colors to how the image feels! ? ;)
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 15:02:01 EDT kr428

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     • lxoliva
     @lxoliva No, definitely not. But it's a matter of use cases. And of user expectations. CLI seems obvious to tech savvy folks...
   • robmyers (robmyers)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 15:02:01 EDT robmyers

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     • lxoliva
     @lxoliva I think it's more about convenience. Ironically, the FLOSS Manuals CLI book introduction uses image editing as an example :-)
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 15:02:35 EDT kr428

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     • lxoliva
     • csolisr
     @lxoliva ... where, to people used to working with visual media (i.e. old-fashioned light boxes), operating image processing with text ...
   • lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 15:04:09 EDT lxoliva

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     • kr428
     @kr428 now, when I write “scriptability” I mean using an interpreted rather than compiled language; think e.g. python, not just sh
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 15:04:47 EDT kr428

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     • lxoliva
     • csolisr
     @lxoliva ... seems pointless. That's what I meant: CLI _is_ powerful and a good tool... to a very certain user group. ;)
   • lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 15:13:09 EDT lxoliva

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     • kr428
     @kr428 I challenge the latter limitation; I saw a former GUI-only user's eyes shine as he first ejected a CD from the cmd line :-)
   • zoowar (zoowar)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 15:13:19 EDT zoowar

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     • kr428
     Easy tasks for siri. Don't ignore that you send those signal to your hand as you move the mouse.
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 15:20:15 EDT kr428

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     • zoowar
     Yes. YES! That's the very point. Appropriate tasks for the CLI. But not CLI for _everything_. Allow tasks to be GUI-only for good reason. ;)
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 15:21:44 EDT kr428

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     • lxoliva
     • csolisr
     @lxoliva ... our end users still _except_ the medium to be ejected using the hardware button on the CD drive. No one would bother ...
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 15:21:57 EDT kr428

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     • lxoliva
     • csolisr
     @lxoliva ... using _any_ kind of software for that. ;)
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 15:22:17 EDT kr428

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     • csolisr
     ("expect" even...)
   • lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 15:30:47 EDT lxoliva

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     • kr428
     @kr428 why are you trying to argue I shouldn't be entitled to choose using a scripting interface when it makes sense to me?
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 15:48:38 EDT kr428

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     • lxoliva
     @lxoliva Well I just insist on that there are use cases and fields of use where CLI is not just "not perfect" but simply makes no sense. ;)
   • lxoliva (lxoliva)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 15:56:34 EDT lxoliva

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     • kr428
     @kr428 I'll give you they may not make sense for you. but how can you assert they don't make sense for me, or for anyone else?
   • jacobwb (jacobwb)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 22:46:12 EDT jacobwb

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     • lxoliva
     @lxoliva I'm not talking about the final rendering, I'm talking about integrating CGI into video. Feature tracking, lens distortion ...
   • jacobwb (jacobwb)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 22:47:13 EDT jacobwb

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     • lxoliva
     @lxoliva ... white/color balance, image stabilization, all necessary for CGI work and all require seeing the video as you're working on it.
   • patrickniedzielski (patrickniedzielski)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Aug-2012 22:50:00 EDT patrickniedzielski

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     • csolisr
     Please let them also support non-interactive modes taking input from STDIN and output to STDOUT. It's really disheartening when they don't.
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 00:28:29 EDT kr428

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     • lxoliva
     @lxoliva I don't. :) I just feel the.original post.and quite a bunch of comments to follow to ...
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 00:29:55 EDT kr428

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     • lxoliva
     @lxoliva ... to actually fail making this kind of difference, especially regardingmain targeted user group -
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 00:31:30 EDT kr428

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     • lxoliva
     @lxoliva ... from that point of view, even though it will help people like you or partially me, a CLI interface in an imaging ...
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 00:32:35 EDT kr428

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     • lxoliva
     @lxoliva ... or video app will be pretty much irrelevant to most of the user base. Your using and wanting. CLI or ...
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 00:34:19 EDT kr428

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     • lxoliva
     @lxoliva ... scripting interface is perfectly fine, and yet a very special way of using the app in a possibly somewhat limited way. This...
   • csolisr (csolisr)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 00:34:46 EDT csolisr

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     • lxoliva
     @lxoliva Each has its place. CLI is for scripting and text-based editing, GUI for image-based manipulating. Applications should offer both.
   • kr428 (kr428)'s status on Thursday, 23-Aug-2012 00:36:13 EDT kr428

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     • lxoliva
     @lxoliva ... again is fine. Same as providing a GUI for administering Linux servers is fine to some. ;)